Peter Phillips, one of the most prominent members of the P J Patterson Cabinet, was appointed minister of national security late 2001. How much progress has this minister with a reputation for getting the job done, actually achieved since taking charge of this challenging portfolio? Earl Moxam spoke with him last week.

Moxam: In the period since you have been appointed minister of national security, how many of your own objectives have been accomplished?

Phillips: I would say, not very much, in so far as my objectives are to really help steer the country to a decidedly different security environment than the one that we are in now. We have started a lot of important things and we are making some gains, but I don’t think there has been any qualitative change in the nature of the security environment. I am hopeful, however, that as we continue to implement the programme that we have underway that we will be able to see some kind of qualitative change.

Moxam: What are some of the measures that you would highlight as being of particular significance?

Phillips: First of all, the question of building up the numbers in the police force, and the opening of the second training facility on an emergency basis. We have graduated a significant number — I think, maybe close to 600 so far. We’re doing another 400 in June, and we’re going to continue that process to build up the number even as we are reviewing the overall establishment, because, as I’ve said on previous occasions, we are under-policed.

Moxam: What’s the size of the current establishment?

Phillips: Eight thousand, I believe.

Moxam: And ideally, how large would you like to see it?

Phillips: I’m awaiting the result of that review, but I know for example, proportionate to the population of Barbados, if we had their population, we would be somewhere around 13/14 thousand, given what they have and what we have. I think what we have done in regard to the Island Special Constabulary Force — reorganising it and changing it and giving it this particular remit on the public order side, particularly in downtown Kingston — it has had a very positive impact. Both in relation to the JCF and the JDF, the re-equipping component is very important — the motor vehicles and motor cycles for the JCF and some new vehicles and boats for the JDF, and we are in the process of acquiring more for both — that’s an important component of what we have done.

I would hope that through things like the Youth Against Crime Initiative and our general communications and public relations programme and the citizens’ police relations programme involving themselves in the social renewal in the communities in which there has been this longer-term presence, they have begun to see some shift in the nature of the attitude between the police and the population.

Moxam: The crime report presented last year emphasised the importance of re-establishing legitimate leadership within the community versus leadership by terror being exercised by some so-called dons. How much progress is being made in that respect?

Phillips: The security forces are increasingly more sensitive to the importance of demonstrating the message, both symbolically and substantively, that there is the rule of law and that there is one law for all Jamaicans and that no one is above the law. But I have said that ultimately it is only by effective investigation and policing that we will bring anyone who is in breach of the law to book. Only then will we have any real restoration of public confidence. This means that as far as the major centres of organised criminal activities are concerned, we need to be more effective, and I am very dissatisfied in that regard.

While I know that active measures are underway, all the agencies, including our foreign partners, know that I’m extremely dissatisfied with the rate of progress in bringing conclusive prosecutions of some of the main organised centres of activity. The security forces have been instructed by me to redouble their efforts in this regard, to become more sophisticated in this regard.

Moxam: Is this due to a deficit in the level of intelligence being received by the police?

Phillips: There is an intelligence deficit and I have set out as one of my main tasks to modernise our intelligence gathering capabilities. We have made some progress — we’ve begun to establish the National Intelligence Bureau, and the training work is underway. We have deepened our co-operation with our foreign partners. But if there is one lesson that I have learnt, it is that effective policing in a modernised, urbanised environment where crime is being increasingly internationalised, intelligence becomes increasingly preponderant as the means of your counteraction, and that we certainly do not have an effective infrastructure to the extent that we need in this regard.

But beyond the intelligence deficit, I get the impression that we have allowed a sense of “untouchability” that is paralysing even some of the people who are required to act.

Moxam: Are you saying that some members of the police force believe that there are persons in the society at whatever level who are untouchable and therefore they do not have the confidence to go after them?

Phillips: Well, I think the combination of feeling that a lot of inroads have been made into intimidation of witnesses by criminal elements, by the fact that the criminal elements have a lot of tentacles out in “legitimate society”, including the political sphere as well as business and other areas of life; and that the resources garnered by these criminals are so great that, yes, there are some members of the security apparatus that are intimidated. And that doesn’t mean that they are unwilling to do their job or that they are themselves corrupt, but simply that they are overly tentative in putting together a case because their confidence has been shattered because of what we have allowed as a society to take place and grow over the years. It’s going to take some time to reverse it.

Moxam: You are responsible for policy versus operations which are handled by the police high command, but how do you respond to the news of the events surrounding the recent meeting between the police and Donald “Zeeks” Phipps at the police station and all of the nervousness that attended that operation?

Phillips: As I understand it, it was an interrogation and the police have the right to interrogate any citizen about whom they have a right to do that.

Moxam: Some police spokespersons did not describe it as an interrogation and I refer to your comment about intimidation in that context.

Phillips: Well, I actually didn’t hear that because I wasn’t here — I wasn’t in the island — but as I said before, any citizen of Jamaica — lawyer, politician, doctor, businessman, worker, machinist, mechanic — in whom the police have an interest, ought to be able, within the law, to undertake their interrogation.

Moxam: How culpable would you say is your own political organisation as far as links with questionable characters is concerned?

Phillips: I’ve always said that it is the purpose of law enforcement to provide the ultimate defences against the people who are involved in criminal activities. Obviously a political party has a responsibility to protect itself from unsavoury influences. But the ultimate protection for society and for all of us is going to be an effective set of security forces. Beyond that I would just simply say that every sphere of our lives has been penetrated by the international criminal enterprises that have loomed larger in our country over the past couple decades.

Moxam: Is that recognition acknowledged by your party leadership?

Phillips: In this matter I speak of governmental leadership, and the Government recognises that that is so and I’ve been given the job to do something about it.

Moxam: The police report almost daily on a high success rate in recovering illegal guns, yet, it would seem that the inflow of guns into the country is still quite significant. Are you satisfied that Jamaica is getting the level of support expected from its foreign partners in efforts to stem this flow?

Phillips: I think that the nature of the firearms trade has been transformed over many years. We certainly have increased the level of our co-operation, particularly with the US authorities. Again, this is an area that has to be intelligence-driven to find out where the weapons come from. We are getting the necessary X-ray equipment and other items to deal with the ports; but that will only cover one element of the trade. What you are seeing is that within the Caribbean and Central America there is also a significant and growing trade in firearms; we have a relatively large coastline and we have to try to police this, which in itself presents a challenge.

Moxam: Is there any other pending legislation that you will be giving priority this year?

Phillips: Yes. There’s the Plea Bargaining Bill, which will facilitate expedition through the court system in getting to the main organising centre of criminal activity. There’s also the amendment to the Fingerprint Act, which is just about ready. We hope to look at amendments to the Firearms Act, primarily to increase some of the penalties, and elaborating some of the crimes that are involved and ensuring that these penalties are commensurate with the crimes, for example, importing and distributing (guns), these are particularly important crimes and we need to examine whether we ought not to be applying a different range of penalties for other offences where firearms are involved. So, for example, robbery with a firearm would attract a harsher penalty, because the problem is the gun, which looms too large in too many crimes. The Port Security Act will be brought this year as well.

I want to emphasise that the change in the security environment that we seek won’t happen overnight. It’s going to involve a sustained attack on the security problem along a number of fronts, simultaneously. We have to modernise the force… We have to address the morale of the police and the working conditions under which they operate. We’re going to have to address the question of public confidence in the force and the trust between citizenry and police, which in turn must mean that the public is assured of the quality of the integrity of the force. I am myself very dissatisfied — there are too many reports, verifiable reports of corrupt activities. The High Command has been acting on some of that… and some cases are before the courts. None of this does the reputation of the security forces any good, and it certainly weakens public confidence in the force; and that has to be an important line of attack on the problem overall in the country, and I’m working with the High Command to develop some initiatives to address this.

Moxam: You do not know for sure how long you will hold this particular portfolio, and you have already indicated that you are not satisfied with the progress made so far…

Phillips: I think an important start has been made, but I’m just saying that I would be the last one to beat my chest and proclaim victory. I wouldn’t do that. To the same extent that the Opposition spokesman says “Well, you’ve a blip downward and we need a new plan”; if it were not sad, it would be ludicrous and laughable, because it means that no one has grasped what I’ve been trying to say, that there is not a quick fix. We have to sustain the effort! The numbers are moving in the right direction but that does not constitute the qualitative change in the direction that I seek. I, for one, don’t believe that we have to accommodate to having all the decent people cowering behind bars and afraid to go out on the road because criminals are overrunning the road. I think we need to change that and I look forward to the day when, even if we cannot beat the swords into plough shares, at least we can pull down all the bars and that surround decent people’s houses and opening the windows and doors and making us feel free once again from the grips of criminality.